We Need To Talk About Elouise

[Pete]

Yo sisters,

Witch features a solitary young woman being imprisoned in a cage by five men; this woman is then dragged across the countryside for a couple of weeks and then (quite often) burned alive. Any agency that the woman might have to escape during the journey is denied by express fiat of the text - she can't just escape (for any extended period of time) and must always end up back in the captivity of the men. Even though the game is entitled Witch, the game is rather more about the men and their feelings about what they are doing. The game does allow the men to rebel against the burning of the young woman, but in the burning scene all agency is stripped from the woman because the text explicitly states that she is bound and gagged; indeed, in the burning scene if the players of the men simply do nothing and let the scene unfold, then that scene unfolds as a series of boxed texts, increasingly violent in tone, in which the young woman is burned alive.

Grim+lots.

Much of the discussion on these boards about Witch has concerned how good the game is. Nobody has mentioned the often casual expressions of misogyny, religious fanaticism, and even more casual BDSM elements - 5 men versus 1 woman, binding, gagging, cages, loss of agency - in this game: I'm quite sure that there is an element of "well, you know, it's a medieval setting and like, they burned witches then"; then again, in the thread on casual racism some folk were of the opinion that the casual racism expressed by soldiers during war didn't have much of a place at the gaming tables of today.

But, really? My opening paragraph certainly is biased, but nothing in there is untrue. I do enjoy playing Witch, but like Kagematsu, my games have all left me with a feeling of "hrrmm": much as I like that game of samurai romance, the fact that there is a Threat hanging over the women of the village colours the "romance" in a way that is slightly, well, "hrrmm".

I might be able to put some more meat on the bones of my feeling of "hrrmm" later in the week, but I'd be keen to read what you think about the casual misogyny and BDSM elements in the game.

Cheers
Pete

[w00hoo]

I believe Clarkson would advocate burning Toad, probably in front of his loved ones like Mick.

I've not played it yet, I will at some point I'm sure (January if not before in fact) so these are quite sweeping.

The biggest 'it's OK really' is probably that 'it's ages ago and they burnt witches didn't they?' You're ironically playing the male roles as superstitious souls cowed by something they were too ill informed to understand so whatever they do to the Witch it's not the Players fault really. That's a pretty carte blanche answer for almost any gaming with a sword involved. 'Well, of course the Paladin slaughters all of the goblins with no care of their age or sex, they were a bunch of goblins, it's what Paladin's did isn't it?'

At the end of the day it's up to the players who've chosen to play the game how they want to run with it and all you can hope is that people who have problems with what is happening to Elouise are going to pipe up about it rather than just get grumpy. You've mentioned that the final boxed texts go in to more and more detail about how Elouise burns unless interrupted, is it possible that the intention (if only we had the author here to chip in, he's probably on a yacht somewhere with his blunts and bitches) that each box text ends with a silent 'Reaaallllllyyyyy? Are you OK with this? You're just going to spectate this even though you know it's going to get worse? RRrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaallllllllllyyyyy?' after all there's nothing to stop someone putting Elouise out of her misery even if they think she is supposed to die, is there?

On a personal note, it's possible that you're never going to feel happy with Kagematsuzkio because the female characters are constantly forced back to being low status because they have a task they just can't do without the mans help. Equally I don't know if you've played Elouise in the game, but that could be the most likely role to come out of it feeling happy with it, if you burn at least you know there's nothing else you could have done to not burn, but for chunks she is also going to be low status and by definition she'll end that way if she isn't released.

[oreso]

Yes, yes, yes.

Needless to say, I'd prefer this aspect of the game to be entirely implicit. Don't want folks to feel as if they're meant to be exploring 'the plight of women', but by exploring the situation hopefully they will touch on it a bit anyway. It should still be fun for all involved (including Elouise' player, who may be, unlike the women of Kagematsu, powerful and feared).

You've mentioned that the final boxed texts go in to more and more detail about how Elouise burns unless interrupted, is it possible that the intention (if only we had the author here to chip in, he's probably on a yacht somewhere with his blunts and bitches) that each box text ends with a silent 'Reaaallllllyyyyy? Are you OK with this?

Toad's indie rockstar lifestyle aside, yes, yes, yes. Each little passage ends with the single sentence 'Though it means her death'.

Tangent: So how about a game focused around a 1950s lynch mob dragging their black former neighbour to be hanged for a string of vicious murders... Yeah. I feel more comfortable exploring feminist ideas, and through the lens of medieval superstition.

[Kaiserjez]

after all there's nothing to stop someone putting Elouise out of her misery even if they think she is supposed to die, is there?

There is - she needs to die in the ritual to end the plague - or so the Church says anyway.

[Stronty Girl]

I'm quite sure that there is an element of "well, you know, it's a medieval setting and like, they burned witches then";

First off, not all historical witches were women. I've not played Witch (doesn't sound like my cup of tea), but I'm guessing the game is either riffing off female stereotypes to get the story moving. Namely:

1. The weak and feeble woman. Help me Obi Wan Kagematsu, you're my only hope! Hey look, macho guys, here is an innocent and infantalised girly girl who needs your protection.

2. The prostitute. Want a little titilation in your game, sir? Seduction and sex as payment for sevices rendered.

3. The Mata Hari. As above, but she'll stab you in the back.

Now as Elouise is a PC, the player can choose which of those paths to follow, but IMHO its a frakking limited choice. If Elouise was male, would any of those options even show their face???

Then again, as mentioned in the veils thread, there's a disjunct between me and my character. I don't believe in hell, the devil, witches possessed by Satan, yadda yadda yadda. I don't believe that being burned alive is a fitting punishment for anything. But if the GM hands me a character sheet that says "You are a superstitious medieval peasant", presumably I'm supposed to play it as if I do?

Also... Did they burn witches? I have a mate who gets irate and swears that in the UK witches were only ever hanged or pressed to death with stones.

[Stephanie]

But if the GM hands me a character sheet that says "You are a superstitious medieval peasant", presumably I'm supposed to play it as if I do?

Well, none of the sheets are quite as explicit as that - not even the religious brother, but you are definitely meant to place yourself in an environment where this is the 'common' view.

The game then becomes about what your character actually believes, how their feelings change (or stay the same) for the duration of the journey, and the reasons for those feelings, whether they're from events before the journey or on it.

So there's plenty of scope to go towards being highly superstitious, or being quite the opposite, an extremely pragmatic soul.

Also... Did they burn witches? I have a mate who gets irate and swears that in the UK witches were only ever hanged or pressed to death with stones.

As I understand it (from personal googling, rather than the rulebook), they weren't burned for witchcraft in England, but they were burned for treason (most frequently for the petty treason of cursing their husbands). In this case, Elouise had confessed to causing the plague that had befallen the entirety of England... so I guess that qualifies

[Mick Red]

The weak and feeble woman. Help me Obi Wan Kagematsu, you're my only hope! Hey look, macho guys, here is an innocent and infantalised girly girl who needs your protection

I suggest you play it then, she is far from that and is in fact a very powerful character, the young woman has been found guilty of witchcraft and is going to burn....... it fits the game, cant be giving her chainmail and a 2 handed broadsword, even to please the feminists.... Elouise has the ability to twist and destroy her accusers, who are not her protectors by the way but her captors really..

[w00hoo]

Also... Did they burn witches? I have a mate who gets irate and swears that in the UK witches were only ever hanged or pressed to death with stones.

Don't want to derail the thread, but almost always not. It came up in a game at IndieCon and the player that was adamant that they didn't has since researched further and found there is at least one occasion. For the fiction, burning fits as it is a lot more emotive than hanging or pressing. Often witches were tortured to recant their witchcraft and a lot (although my Salem knowledge is better than my European one here) they weren't killed at all.

It's an interesting idea, does Elouise have to be female? What does it change if they aren't. If they exist mainly to make the other 5 characters think then being male shouldn't be an issue.

[oreso]

Leaving aside homosexuality (which is all good and sinfull too obviously), sex and sympathy for her helpless womanliness are definitely tools that Elouise can use. Not the only tools, but they're there, and they're powerful.

And genuine non-tool sex and sympathy are interesting too. Genuine relationships can definitely exist between the characters.

So yeah. She's female, and deliberately so. It doesn't have to be a big deal if you don't wanna explore that.

--------

It's an interesting idea, does Elouise have to be female? What does it change if they aren't. If they exist mainly to make the other 5 characters think then being male shouldn't be an issue.

The social dynamic would obviously change. Every arrangement of genders might well be interesting though. Could possibly turn Br. Armond into a nun? Five powerful women escorting a young man to die?

Simply turning Elouise into a dude would remove gender dynamics from the game. I mean, the general absence and marginalisation of women from history and fiction is a point in itself, but going along with that isn't going to provoke much thought about it.

Should note, most other arrangements would destroy any sort of historicity, and as noted, it's tenuous on that already

[Pete]

Sister Agnieszka
—A nun escorting the Witch on her final journey.

Traits

• Friendly
• Weary
• Devout

Questions

• Why haven't you cried in a long time?
• Why did you give up the life of a noblewoman to take holy orders?
• Who does Elouise remind you of?

Scene Ideas

• A tender embrace
• The sound of simple prayer prior to eating
• A confidence shared
• The screeching caw of a murder of ravens
• A cold mist that rolls in with the dawn

[Pete]

I'm just kinda tossing the sister out there to provoke comment.

I know that Toad is gunning for illustrations for each of the characters, but when I think about the dear sister I can see her as both:

• an older~ish woman—think Judi Dench/Celia Imrie—very much like a mother;
• a young woman about the same age as Elouise, very much like a sister. (In the sense of a sibling.)

... and I think that the role-play of her would be quite different in either case. A definitive illustration would most likely colour the interpretation of the character to one or other of those options; I'm saying that I'm ambivalent about the presence of the forthcoming character illustrations: I rather like that there are no illustrations for the characters in Love in the Time of Seid, because I've seen hefty wee princesses, strapping Valkyrie-like princesses, fat Viking earls and effete Muscovite-like earls, which has been grand.

Cheers
Pete

[Shadowmourne]

I would say that (as someone who is a fan of Shakespeare) nothing stops any of the characters being played as a cross dressing woman.

Cross-dressed (completely insane) Ham was really fun and I could see how playing any of the other characters (though it would be more difficult) as a woman in man's clothing could add a lot.

But it's hardly the point.

Historical gaming inflicts some historical mindsets on us - Steal Away Jordan forces us into a mindset where there is slavery and Duty and Honour force us to recognise rank and privilege as a tangible thing. Some people avoid this by playing fantasy or near-Historical settings where they can hand-wave away those uncomfortable elements - and that's a good and valid choice.

But historical gaming doesn't stop us from thinking critically. If you want to play a game - any game - in an uncomplicated way that's fine.

Like any hobby, there's no real problem switching off one's brain to enjoy something which echoes uncomfortable views if one doesn't carry those views off of the table.

However, I'm super stoked about any group who can come with me and play something straight and yet through our playing critique those very attitudes we are presenting.

Elouise has many opportunities to expose the iniquities and hypocrisies of a system that will burn a women it calls powerless and weak out of fear.

Berrick has plenty of chances to question why two powerful knights and a man of the Church fear a woman whom they could break without a thought.

Ham has every opportunity to question the power of the Church and the Nobility that lets a single, weak peasant - and a woman at that - kill so many.

The two knights might question the crusades and whether the Plague is a punishment from on High for their actions overseas. Whether the church is so infallible and powerful that a single witch can do so much against true and honest worshippers of Christ.

And Brother Armond? Well he is given doubt to begin with. How he manifests that doubt does not have to be directed at Elouise and his own hypocrisies - perhaps it is the Church or the fact he belongs to some sect that holds that all Men and Women are as equal as Adam and Eve - that Christ treated the least as we as he treated the greatest.

So yes, if you play the game in an uncomplicated fashion it can be sexist - and hypocritical in many more ways. But no, that's not the only way to play - and ultimately it is you - the Player - who has the power and not your avatar or character in the fictional world.

Not, uh, that I'm against playing a totally gender-swapped version - either straight up or fantasy or sci fi or what have you.

[Magus]

Even though the game is entitled Witch, the game is rather more about the men and their feelings about what they are doing. The game does allow the men to rebel against the burning of the young woman, but in the burning scene all agency is stripped from the woman because the text explicitly states that she is bound and gagged

Nobody has mentioned the often casual expressions of misogyny, religious fanaticism, and even more casual BDSM elements - 5 men versus 1 woman, binding, gagging, cages, loss of agency - in this game.

I might be able to put some more meat on the bones of my feeling of "hrrmm" later in the week, but I'd be keen to read what you think about the casual misogyny and BDSM elements in the game.

I don't think the misogyny is casual. I think that the male characters are pretty much products of their Judeo-Christian environment. Eve has been characterised as the original temptress which has affected the last 2000 - 5000 years of attitudes towards women. Additionally the notion that Jesus did not have female disciples have been used for the further justification of excluding women, contrary to ideas in the Gospel of Mary.

I think that the BDSM side of things is a bit tenuous, as you can argue endlessly about whether the Dom or the Sub is ultimately in control. For me Elouise has agency in the game, albeit in a limited sense, much like the slaves in Steal Away Jordan. I think the game is uncomfortable (in a good way) for me as it is about this woman carrying the disavowed thoughts and emotions of the men, again much as women have done for many, many years. I think she is in a tenuous position as if she exposes the fraudulence of her captors they will feel more justified in burning her, whereas if she is not too directly confrontational then I think she stands a good chance of surviving.

You can argue that this is a dynamic that women frequently experience in life, usually not in such a life or death way, but present in many everyday interactions. Kagematsu has a similar effect. I always felt that my female character had agency in some ways. However, she was being evaluated by Kagematsu at every step as to whether he would help or not.

I do wonder what is a game that is both aware and respectful of gender difference and does not attempt to solve these difference by making man and women identical.

[Pete]

teh officail xpansion page for teh witch is up! lets's c if we can publish it b4 the fofical game lulz+#justkiddingiloveyoukevbab

Also, Stuart (shadowmourne) has contributed Elijah the Witch! Cool.

[cthulahoops]

Ah, excellent. I've waited long enough that Stuart has done an excellent job of summing up the role of misogyny in the fiction, so I can focus on a few comments on the role of Elouise's player.

Sure, Elouise's player is completely powerless during the absolution scene until such time as another player chooses to vary from the script. They do get two things that do a lot to balance this though. Firstly they have absolute authority to determine the guilt or innocence of Elouise. This decision sets the whole tone of the rest of the game. Are the rest of the men doing God's work, or are they burning an innocent woman? Elouise's player decides. Secondly, if the players make the wrong decision in the absolution, Elouise's player controls every other players epilogue. It's not a weak role, and there's a long line of people (myself including) queuing up to play her.

I'm also a bit puzzled by the references to BDSM. For me at least, binding, gagging, cages don't become BDSM until they are sexualised and I haven't seen that happen in game yet. I can several see ways in which it could happen, some very dark and nasty, some farcical and ridiculous. I'm not sure I want to play any of them.

I've not played Witch (doesn't sound like my cup of tea), but I'm guessing the game is either riffing off female stereotypes to get the story moving. Namely:
...
Now as Elouise is a PC, the player can choose which of those paths to follow, but IMHO its a frakking limited choice.

I've only played twice, but I wouldn't attempt to reduce either of the Elouises I've seen to these stereotypes. There are very few restrictions on Elouise's character sheet as to how she should be played, so her player has pretty much unlimited choice for how to play her.

Adam.