Are You Playing D&D or Roleplaying?

[Clanger1968]

Who cares what the rules are. Who cares what type of game it is, mechanics or narrative freeform heavy. If you play a character you are roleplaying. Be it D&D 4E to Fiasco you are all roleplaying. Simples.

I think people get bogged down with labelling to many things. Respect how others play and stop the forming of elitist snobbery game groups. We are all Roleplayers here and should respect how others play and all games in the Hobby. I respect people have different tastes but do not deride or look down on others tastes.

I for one do not care if I am playing an Indie Freeform Narravtive game or a Mechanics Heavy game. I play a Character and more importantly have the F word (Fun ... I know an dirty word which should not be mentioned around here ). That to me is Roleplaying, playing a character and having a bloody good laugh in the process with friends.

[DigitalMage]

[Do you feel that the aforementioned example of the chase is mutually exclusive to "taking actions that that character would take, engaging in behaviour that that character would engage in, interacting with the other players as that character"?

No, but I'd see that kind of situation as mechanics-rich and narrative/roleplaying poor, because a lot of the action and behaviour is pre-determined by the setting, with little scope for improvisation,
[...]
*I'd be happy to be persuaded that D&D doesn't place undue emphasis on mechanics. It just looks that way to me.

I would agree that D&D is quite a mechanic "heavy" (i.e. crunchy) game, but I don't see that in anyway as necessarily preventing roleplaying.

In the example you gave of fleeing from a goblin you just stole from I can see lots of opportunities to take actions that are in character, that can involve interaction with other players (including the GM via NPCs) and that could involve great in-character dialogue and narration of results.

For example, right from the start whether the PC flees or not would be a decision influenced by the nature of the character - a dwarven warrior with a hatred for goblins might turn and fight when he realises he is only being chased by a single goblin shouting out a challenge as he does so "Kronawl never ran from a fair fight with a goblin before, and I don't intend to start now! Are you willing to die for this gold, gobbo?"

If the PC did decide to flee then the player may elect to have his character try to determine the best place to try to lose the goblin "My character wants to find a market place, or main thorough fare where he could get lost in the crowd, does he know of any?" in response to which the GM may ask for a Streetwise roll to know of such, and if it succeeds the chase may become a game of hide and seek rather than a contest of speed. But if the Streetwise roll were to fail badly, maybe that results in the PC finding himself down a dead end.

At that point climbing over the fence may be an option, but maybe a less than athletic character may lead to the player decide his PC will try to bluff the goblin that he is a member of a crime syndicate and that if the goblin were to kill him the mob would come back for revenge.

Anyway, all this is meant to show is that just because a system may emphasise mechanics it doesn't necessarily mean that action and behaviour is pre-determined by the setting, with little scope for improvisation. The ability to improvise and come up with novel solutions (or attempts at solutions) is what differentiates table top RPGs from computer games, and that is true whether the game is D&D or FATE or something else.

So yeah, I am struggling to see how D&D restricts the sort of roleplaying that is possible in other RPGs.

[Baz King]

I don't think you need to have 'talking out loud in character' in order to be roleplaying. As noted above, you can be roleplaying in a situation, or with the scenery, or with the problem at hand. You don't have to be 'saying' anything. I'm sure there's some saying involving words and actions....

Point being; Waiting for Godot is no more a roleplaying scene than anything out of Castaway, or Oceans 11, or Starship Troopers.

[Al]

So yeah, I am struggling to see how D&D restricts the sort of roleplaying that is possible in other RPGs.

Inherently? Not at all of course it doesn't (cue: my previous witterings about indepth narrative campaigns being run will all kinds of the usual suspects)

An argument (I hesitate to state 'the' argument) is that empirically people (including I) have played in XD&D games which were constrained. And played in Indie/punk/anarchic/other games where the mechanics actively encouraged a type of play (possibly a type of roleplay or possibly just another type of PLAY). Of course mere accumulation of either negative or positive evidence does not constitute proof.

[catty_big]

I would agree that D&D is quite a mechanic "heavy" (i.e. crunchy) game, but I don't see that in anyway as necessarily preventing roleplaying.

Well no, it doesn’t prevent roleplaying, but…

I am struggling to see how D&D restricts the sort of roleplaying that is possible in other RPGs.

Erm…

I don't think you need to have 'talking out loud in character' in order to be roleplaying. As noted above, you can be roleplaying in a situation, or with the scenery, or with the problem at hand. You don't have to be 'saying' anything

No, no, no, er…

empirically people (including I) have played in XD&D games which were constrained. And played in Indie/punk/anarchic/other games where the mechanics actively encouraged a type of play (possibly a type of roleplay or possibly just another type of PLAY).

Ah yes, that’s it. Different games encourage a different type of play, which is no better or worse than any other, just different.

I for one do not care if I am playing an Indie Freeform Narravtive game or a Mechanics Heavy game. I play a Character and more importantly have the F word (Fun ... I know an dirty word which should not be mentioned around here ). That to me is Roleplaying, playing a character and having a bloody good laugh in the process with friends.

Absolutely, couldn’t agree more.

Respect how others play and stop the forming of elitist snobbery game groups. We are all Roleplayers here and should respect how others play and all games in the Hobby. I respect people have different tastes but do not deride or look down on others tastes.

Again, no argument there. But just to be clear, I’m not disrespecting or deriding, I’m just trying to analyse. In any case, this forum is no stranger to long, intense, analytical debates. I’m not the first to kick one off (remember our friend Viking Hat of a few months ago?) and I’m sure I won’t be the last. But I guess what you’re saying is that I’m attacking D&D and by extension all the people who play it in all its various forms. No, no, no, emphatically not. D&D is a brilliant, cleverly worked-out game that has stood the test of time in a way that games like Fiasco and Umlaut are unlikely to do. And to quote myself:

I'm not in any way knocking D&D: without it and Gary Gygax we probably wouldn't have any [fill in name of leading 'indie' game author here]

.
I also think it’s time for me to hitch a ride on a spelljammer and head for the fabled Astral Sea, to play being to understand, if not completely, then at least better.

Finally, I really have been trying to analyse rather than attack- the quote above being not merely rhetorical- but I can see how some of my comments could have been misinterpreted, so, if anyone feels offended by them, I apologise.

P.S. @DigitalMage: Well done bringing my example scene to vibrant life. I can see how I would enjoy playing it that way. May even try to write a scenario based around it. If I did, would you play it?

[Neil Gow]

Respect how others play and stop the forming of elitist snobbery game groups. We are all Roleplayers here and should respect how others play and all games in the Hobby. I respect people have different tastes but do not deride or look down on others tastes.

Sadly the production and distribution of roleplaying games is a business and those games have to be targeted at the right people. Moreover, people who want a certain sort of gaming experience need to be assured that they are picking up a game which speaks to the way they want to play. It is very easy to say that segmenting the gaming market is 'elitist snobbery' but it is necessary and isn't either of those things ... I'd call it 'practical reality'.

I think, however, having read the thread, my point stands. The functional act of 'playing a roleplaying game' does mean fundamentally different things to different people to the point where we can sit at two tables, playing something labelled a RPG but not share that opinion of the activities. There are exceptions - there are always exceptions... but I think the theory holds.