Our Vision for 2007 and beyond

[Phil Masters]

I don't see how a con like this can do anything other than charge for games - the minature and card games have variable costs associated with them, thus you can't have an all in price (as different people want different things). If the RPGs are free that means that everyone is paying for the RPGs whether or not they want to play them, how can this be fair?

If the miniatures and CCG tournaments have specific costs associated with them, this is presumably because of the tournament systems; I admit I'm not familiar with the details. But anyway, in that case, you charge the miniature/CCG players a fee equal to the specific, special costs of those games. The space they occupy, just like the space occupied by any RPG session or boardgame event at the con, costs only its share of the cost of the venue - and the cost of the venue should be covered by the membership fee (and/or maybe commercial sponsorship, dealer table charges, or whatever).

That's the main reason why I pay a membership fee; to cover the cost of the venue, and to be allowed to use a bit of that venue for games. Having paid such a membership, I think that any membership should be allowed to make use of the venue for, this being a games convention, games. Which strikes me as perfectly fair. Extra charges should only exist to cover the specific costs of the thing in question - which RPGs don't have.

[alepulp]

What will happen though is that you'll have a very complex situation.

1) Browsers only
2) RPG Players
3) Tournaments

the first lot obviously cost nothing in terms of special needs - their costs are covered by their entry fee (mainly based on # browsers and the cost of the trader space, advertising, systems, security, HSE etc.). That'll be one cost. For RPG players you have to add the cost of tables, DM/GM overnight costs, chairs, linen, space and administration. So that's another level of costs. For tournaments you need to add costs of judges, prizes, pairing systems and specific advertising. So now you have at least 3 levels of charges for entering the event. It's not as simple as you say. What if I'm a browser and suddenly want to play? We chose to use the browser cost as a base and then add on costs for gaming on top of that. We did, however, allow for casual gaming to be free at spare tables (within reason).

[Phil Masters]

1) Browsers only
2) RPG Players
3) Tournaments

the first lot obviously cost nothing in terms of special needs - their costs are covered by their entry fee (mainly based on # browsers and the cost of the trader space, advertising, systems, security, HSE etc.). That'll be one cost. For RPG players you have to add the cost of tables, DM/GM overnight costs, chairs, linen, space and administration. So that's another level of costs.

You assume that the browsers might want to play - you really ought to hope that they do - and in any case, the space they occupy walking around isn't much different than the space they occupy sitting at a table. And you keep the admin costs for RPGs to a minimum by non messing around with excessive structure.

So you can charge both the same.

We did, however, allow for casual gaming to be free at spare tables (within reason).

Shame about the severe shortage of spare tables.

[lawrenson]

[Shame about the severe shortage of spare tables.

Whilst I was wandering about there seemed to be rather a lot of spare tables. Not so many players, but an awful lot of spare tables and chairs.

In fact, on the Saturday the whole 200-seat area beside the trade hall was unused.

Cheers,
Karen

[Al]

Initially when I read this I was on the side of game. If I read it right paying £5 for as much SATT RPGs as you can eat seems like a bargain.

But having read Phil's last post I think that he might have a point. If you have to charge browsers an extra £5 (no matter how much they might get for that fiver) then that is a possible barrier to them having a stab at a new part of the hobby.

Having learned from this time (and it seems that the Game chaps have) that the RPGs could do with being better publicised and a bigger core of organised games laid on then allowing ad hoc sign ups as well for people who stroll through and think 'ooh that looks cool I'll see if I can have a go' without having to put their hand in their pocket could really help draw more people in to our little hobby.


Al

[alepulp]

But having read Phil's last post I think that he might have a point. If you have to charge browsers an extra £5 (no matter how much they might get for that fiver) then that is a possible barrier to them having a stab at a new part of the hobby.
Al

Thanks for your thoughts, Al.

If they only played one game, it was £3. For those who wanted a full weekend of RPG (up to 7 games - if there's energy) it's £5. When you look at an event like Game 07, where each chair, each square foot, each table and each table cloth, each computer, DMs costs, the advertising, etc. etc. in fact adds up to more than £5 per player, then you have to make some decisions. We decided that if you just wanted to browse and take part in sponsor led events (such as the board games), there'd be one charge. We had a number of people who only did this over the weekend. They usually stayed most of the day though playing games - from the Hoth Challenge, to board games, to chatting to artists, authors, being photod with "Angel" or the Storm troopers, taking part in a a speed painting competition, learning Busho etc. etc. Some even tried the Delve - many times!

I know there's another thread somewhere on UKRoleplayers about how expensive an event the scale of Game 07, GenCon UK, Games Expo and Dragonmeet is to run - different events have different models of funding. I feel that we did a good job on the pricing structure - I'd certainly not want to increase the price for the browsers to subsidise the roleplayers or tournament players - that'd not be fair on those who didn't want to roleplay (but had the choice) but just wanted to do a bunch of the free things. Many of those came with their children and a 4-5 hour roleplaying session wouldn't have been appropriate, nor would an increased entry cost.

One option, I suppose, is to have a table or two that allow browsers to roleplay - possibly at one of the sponsors/exhibitors if they want. Possibly something for Game 08. But that'd not be for core roleplayers.

The Delve provided some of this - a taster of the excitement of real time roleplaying and miniatures gaming! Hooked? Many were!!!! I'm thinking that we could easily have had 3 or more Delve tables going. It is just so difficult to find a Games Master capable of running that kind of table for so long!

Please continue to provide input to us - we want to get better at what we do. We especially welcome new and innovative ideas since we don't just want to be another convention. So - let us know what great thoughts you have for new events at conventions - don't be tied in to the way "it's always been".

[Phil Masters]

Whilst I was wandering about there seemed to be rather a lot of spare tables. Not so many players, but an awful lot of spare tables and chairs.

In fact, on the Saturday the whole 200-seat area beside the trade hall was unused.

Oh, right - the basement. I wasn't sure if that area was meant to be spare games tables, or for eating, or what. I may have missed some notices.

The problem was, the entire basement area felt hidden and out of the way - as the traders were complaining about quite a lot whenever I heard them. The chance of snagging passers-by there for a quick game of something looked to me like it would be close to zero.

[lawrenson]

[The chance of snagging passers-by there for a quick game of something looked to me like it would be close to zero.

Hmmmm.. couldnt you have snagged some passers-by in a busier area and then brought them to a free table? Just a thought.

Cheers,
Karen

[Rim]

This seems to be the place to post feedback on Game 07, but I am sure Dave will move the post if it is in the wrong place.

I have been roleplaying for almost 30 years, I have been to the odd convention and generally know what I want from a convention with roleplaying.

I went to Game 07 with an open mind not sure what to expect. My first big problem was the presence of WotC and the apparent focus on their games.

Don't get me wrong, I have played D&D in all its forms since it first came out, but after what WotC did with Sarbreenar I am now looking for an alterative system.

So when I arrived at the convention I had a bit of a wander. After 10 minutes I realised this was not a role-playing convention. If fact the role-playing appeared to be almost non-existant. I went to the desk which had been set up to co-ordinate the role-playing and enquired about what games I could play. "Take your pick" was the response. Fully over 75% of the roleplaying games did not appear to have any players. This is not a good sign for a convention.

So I begin to wonder if the advertising of the roleplaying portion of the convention had been successful. I suspect that it has not. I would suggest visiting these 2 websites and speaking to the co-ordinators. Between them these 2 systems could bring over 70 roleplayers to a convention.

http://www.dragonmouth.com/

http://www.lihr.org.uk/

I would also recommend not advertising to much WotC roleplaying, as the RPGA & WotC are not currently very popular with people who do travel to roleplaying conventions. This may change in the future, dependant upon what the WotC / RPGA do.

This convention could become the "Conception" of the north, but I would suggest researching the roleplaying market of those who do travel to conventions a bit more. You might want to even consider a bit more Live Roleplaying especially for the overnight slots, which I think could go down quite well.

These are some of my thoughts on the convention. They are not intended to be critisiums, I have a lot of respect for anyone who organises a convention, I just want to see it learn and grow.

Tony

[alepulp]

This seems to be the place to post feedback on Game 07, but I am sure Dave will move the post if it is in the wrong place.

I have been roleplaying for almost 30 years, I have been to the odd convention and generally know what I want from a convention with roleplaying.

I went to Game 07 with an open mind not sure what to expect. My first big problem was the presence of WotC and the apparent focus on their games.

Don't get me wrong, I have played D&D in all its forms since it first came out, but after what WotC did with Sarbreenar I am now looking for an alterative system.

So when I arrived at the convention I had a bit of a wander. After 10 minutes I realised this was not a role-playing convention. If fact the role-playing appeared to be almost non-existant. I went to the desk which had been set up to co-ordinate the role-playing and enquired about what games I could play. "Take your pick" was the response. Fully over 75% of the roleplaying games did not appear to have any players. This is not a good sign for a convention.

So I begin to wonder if the advertising of the roleplaying portion of the convention had been successful. I suspect that it has not. I would suggest visiting these 2 websites and speaking to the co-ordinators. Between them these 2 systems could bring over 70 roleplayers to a convention.

http://www.dragonmouth.com/

http://www.lihr.org.uk/

I would also recommend not advertising to much WotC roleplaying, as the RPGA & WotC are not currently very popular with people who do travel to roleplaying conventions. This may change in the future, dependant upon what the WotC / RPGA do.

This convention could become the "Conception" of the north, but I would suggest researching the roleplaying market of those who do travel to conventions a bit more. You might want to even consider a bit more Live Roleplaying especially for the overnight slots, which I think could go down quite well.

These are some of my thoughts on the convention. They are not intended to be critisiums, I have a lot of respect for anyone who organises a convention, I just want to see it learn and grow.

Tony

Superb feedback, Tony! I've copied those links and am passing to Jon and Nick to work with for Game 08! We also were disappointed in the RPG turnout and your input is great - thanks.

[Phil Masters]

Hmmmm.. couldnt you have snagged some passers-by in a busier area and then brought them to a free table?

Hmm. That might have been possible, given (a) a sufficiently brazen and aggressive approach to recruitment, and (b) quite a few more passers-by.

But usually, the best way to recruit people for quick card games and such is to sit at a table with the game visible where people can see it; and the best way to recruit people for less formal RPGs is through an open notice board arrangement.

[alepulp]

Hmmmm.. couldnt you have snagged some passers-by in a busier area and then brought them to a free table?

Hmm. That might have been possible, given (a) a sufficiently brazen and aggressive approach to recruitment, and (b) quite a few more passers-by.

But usually, the best way to recruit people for quick card games and such is to sit at a table with the game visible where people can see it; and the best way to recruit people for less formal RPGs is through an open notice board arrangement.

The venue didn't lend itself to this approach, sadly, though there was intent to allow it. Maybe you and Jon/Nick should have a chat about Game 08 on the RPG front - it seems that you have a lot of ideas (and... rather a spiffing RPG author)? I really want to see Game become a major, Northern, based RPG convention - as outlined above by Nick. Game 08 will be held in a single hall (similiar is size as the total venue Game 07 used). This will allow for more milling around and "accidental" gaming. Now we just need to ensure that people know about it, know it'll be good and come along.

[pagan angel]

In my humble opinion, there were 2 main problems with Game 07.

There was a problem with registration on Saturday morning, there were queues, bottle necks and let's be honest some severe delays to the start of Saturday morning's games. However, this is something to be learnt from and was not the main issue - although may have been more of an issue if it wasn't for the first main problem: not enough bodies through the door. Perhaps some were put off by the queue but I think the majority of delegates hung on, or like one of my friends - went off had a cup of tea and a bun and returned to rejoin the queue. There just wasn't enough of them - marketing must be improved, and previous comments have indicated avenues to explore. I believe there was a good selection of RPG action on offer, just not enough players.

The lack of bodies can be testified to by the left over goody bags by the way - closer to being knee deep than ankle deep in the stair well by the escalator.

For us down in the basement, we were there bright and shiny at 8 am - we saw not a single customer until at least midday. Partly I imagine because of the complications with registration but also largely because of the unbelievably poor signage. Karen herself was running around sticking up hand written signs to the trade hall.

Even aside from the traders' sensibilities, and with the greatest respect to the organisers, I have been to childrens' birthday parties that had better indication that an event was being held inside than this convention.
I have been to conventions of all sizes, all over the country and yet here I drove round the block time after time trying to figure out exactly where the flipping thing was. Signs are pretty important - a big banner outside is marketing to everyone who sees it as well as being directions to delegates. If you are not allowed, for whatever reason, to put a banner up outside your venue, then that is not a venue you should be using.

I understand that many CCG players were entirely satisfied with their con experience and that individual games of all sorts were thoroughly enjoyed.
It is not easy to run any convention particularly one that wanted to be on such a large scale but basics such as signs are not something to be overlooked.

Anyway, those are my personal views of Game 07 for what they are worth.

mel

[Nikos_Game07]

Mel

Thank you for your observations. All entirely accurate and I can see you made a great effort to avoid judging us, which is appreciated.

Queuing - this is an area that has been thoroughly looked at and will be improved.

Signage - this has been noted by our committee of organisers and will also be improved upon in the obvious and common sense ways.