Change of Venue for 2013

[dpmcalister]

Congrats on moving to the NEC for 2013

[catty_big]

Congrats on moving to the NEC for 2013

Ah. Didn't know that was the case (haven't read the newsletter yet) but am not at all surprised- remember talking to a number of folks last year about what lay ahead, specifically that if the event got much bigger, moving to another, correspondingly larger venue was inevitable. Not sure I like the sound the sound of its being held at the NEC though: I've been there several times for other, non-gaming related events and find it very daunting and corporate- plus there's no Strathallan Suite next door, a key feature of Expo IMO. Oh well. Looking forward to this year's Expo anyway, and I'm sure Richard and the gang will make sure 2013's is enjoyable too .

[StuartBall]

The newsletter states its the Hilton Metropole adjacent to the NEC, not the NEC itself.

It's where the last Dudley Bug Ball was held in 2002.

Nice Venue but expensive to attend from what I recall. It'll be interesting how it affects the overall attendance price based on this years event.

More interestingly from my point of view is whether any significant costs movement results in a drop in attendance.

I've been doing some venue research for someone recently, and even BnB rates at the hotels like Deveres come in at £60 per night per person sharing a double.

I'll be following it with interest from a gaming socioligical view, because it's an order of magnitude change to a venue that has the potential to become a long-term permanent home to a large scale growing convention.

Kind Regards,

Stuart

[pedr]

There appear to be some cheaper hotels relatively close for lower-priced accommodation options, but I'm not sure how convenient they are. It's not clear from Google maps whether the site is terribly pedestrian friendly.

It does seem that this is a move to a venue which has the potential to allow the event to grow considerably, which is great!

[dpmcalister]

The newsletter states its the Hilton Metropole adjacent to the NEC, not the NEC itself.

It's a lot closer to the NEC than Gen Con UK ever got

[StuartBall]

That's not strictly true. If John Brown had won over Pete Adkison instead of Ratty and Raven, 2003 may very well have been at the Metropole at the NEC.

Pedr has already responded with the usual gamer respose of "how cheap can I make it to go, if the Hilton is too expensive".

You and I know Dave from our previous that it's all about the value proposition. UK Expo is a rising star to all intents and purposes so it already has a much better position to make the step change from than Horsemen Events ever did after GCUK2003.

It'll all come down to whether the perceived value of the event can get around an increase in accommodation costs for a notoriously value conscious audience.

It may well come down to how much sponsorship can be sourced to offset any price increases, or accommodation costs. It's not going to be good for the event if 2-300 Pedr's chose cheaper serviceable accommodation, and not the Hilton.

Of course, I am not anti-UKExpo going to Hilton Metropole, I am just aware of the pitfalls of upscaling an event. We've had similar conversations about Conception which has outgrown its original venue.

Kind Regards,

Stuart

[StuartBall]

Might be worth splitting out the Change of Venue discussion from the Newsletter announcement?

Stu

[dpmcalister]

My Gen Con UK comment was tongue-in-cheek

UK Games Expo is a very different convention to Gen Con UK in that it appeals to a much broader audience and roleplaying is but a portion of their target audience.

I also think you're being harsh on Pedr who was only noting that there were cheaper accommodation options available - something which I'm sure the UK Games Expo team are well aware of (after all, the current venue - with the exception of the Strathallan which is used as overspill - has no accommodation attached).

[StuartBall]

Sorry Pedr, it wasn't personal, it was just a typical response, rightly so.

The broad appeal of Expo is where I wanted "Those People" to take Gen Con UK, lost that one!

I'll be very pleased if the Expo people can make it stick, not least because of the "I Told You So" points it will get me with certain people..

However, and this is a very pertinent point that will probably lose me some brownie points in certain circles, but here goes anyway... Roleplayers, specifically, have been spoilt by the cheap accommodation that Naish offers for Conception, and Consequences.

Anyone else trying to do a residential has that to compete with from the off, and its a HUGE barrier to entering the market psychologically.

It is possible, OddCon has managed it, and seems to have shown nice organic growth. I have looked at their pricing for 2012 and it's comparable to what research I have been doing for other venues. So when the offering is right, people will pay the price.

Stu

[pedr]

You have better data than I do, of course, but I'd have thought that CCG players, and the families who Expo wants to attract, are similarly price-conscious.

I think there's also a question about the perceived value of attending an event like this. The 'benefit' vs staying at home and playing or playing at local events is, perhaps, smaller than the benefit from other residential hobby events. SciFi cons, for instance appear to do something qualitatively different from the ordinary activity of fans (though Internet-mediated discussions may be mirroring the kinds of information/access to fellow fans which perhaps used to only really be possible in person). You don't usually get to meet/shake hands with your favourite star, so going to a convention to do so is worth paying for (for some people). You do usually get to play RPGs, board games, CCGs, so it is a difference of scale, not activity, that games conventions offer.

I think they're great, of course, and there are things possible at cons that happen rarely elsewhere - big CCG/minis tournaments, LARPs, interactives/large scale rpg events (of the kind that the Living campaigns sometimes run) etc. But it is worth wondering what monetary value potential attendees put on those kinds of activities.

I think it's great that Expo is moving to a venue with room to expand. But I do think it's a risk, especially if rooms at the hotel are significantly more expensive than many attendees expect to pay and alternatives are difficult to access.

(I didn't think I was the one raising that point, though - I thought it was inherent in Stu's response!)

[pedr]

Might be worth splitting out the Change of Venue discussion from the Newsletter announcement?

Stu

Oh, I agree with this btw. After writing my last post I wondered if it was a bit off topic for this thread, which might be useful for discussion of this year's event!

[NachoMan]

Hi All,

just noticed this discussion so thought would give you info that we have already although we are still working on either adding value or getting price down further.

Entry to the show and game events tickets will remain the same for 2013 - so no price increases for gamers on that front -traders will find similar pricing to this year but the way we sell floor space will be a bit different as it will be on sqm price rather than a set 2m stand.

Bed and breakfast at the hilton 4* for 2013 expo will be at most

Single £60 night
Twin £102 or £51 each per night

As everything will be in the one under one roof with trade easily securable gaming will be available as long as you can stay awake. It means we can also look at other gaming related fun. At the hilton you are 1 stop from the bull ring if non gaming family want somewhere to go and of course swimming pool etc.

It's a big risk - new staff new venue - and we need gamers to come and stay so we are trying to make it a weekend where all the gamers can have a fantastic weekend. That means we have to make it worth a room for a night or two.

At this year's expo there will be an article in the program explaining the move and a couple of q and a seminars for traders and punters so you can ask any questions ypu have. I would like to believe that expo can continue to grow and we would never like to use the NEC to much like a warehouse - however big it can grow we still want a friendly gaming feel.

Hope this helps with some of the speculation

Tony Hyams
(UK EXPO DIRECTOR)

[Phil Masters]

Sounds good, Tony. Should certainly work for me.

Someone I know who regularly brings his family to Expo is a bit concerned, though - because he can currently get good family rates in one of the hotels close to the Clarendon, and he hasn't seen anything comparable quoted for the Hilton. The numbers he has found seem to push his costs up by several hundred quid. Now, I'm as inclined to get annoyed with British roleplayer tight-fis... cost consciousness, but this is getting into significant territory.

Given that Expo is more family-oriented than most games conventions, I can see this being a significant issue. If you can negotiate family rates out of the new hotel, or find somewhere nearby that can offer them, it's probably be worth the effort.

[rdenning]

We would of course encourage and hope that folk will stay in the HIlton. It will give you the full con experience (and a swimming pool!) BUT there are cheaper hotels within a mile in Solihull as an option. We are engaging the services of a hotel booking agency to secure best rates and hope that we can offer a good deal at the main venue but some cheap alternatives too.

Believe me that WE are cost conscious - after all we are running a con whose budget runs in to several tens of thousands and if we get it wrong could be very unpleasant for us. We don't want to lose visitors by forcing them out on cost ( so a lot of work is being done to keep costs affordable - without sending us to the debtors jail!!)

[StuartBall]

£60 a night?

Ouch.

I concur with Phil Masters on the frugality of roleplayers when it comes to convention spend. I'm doing some research on this at the moment, and moving to a professional venue from a cheap venue is very hard sell when the value proposition remains the same, although the Hilton Breakfast is very good.

The problem as I see it is that Hilton don't really NEED to drop their rates too much, because there is invariably something going on at the NEC and they can get the higher rates without Expo. Makes the negotiating position somewhat harder.

If you are then seen to advocate offsite accommodation that is cheaper to satisfy the fiscal savvy gamer then you undermine your position with Hilton, and possibly skip a tier which reduces the prices further. Catch-22

The parallels here are Gen Con UK (Under Hosemen Events), it seems that Expo (rightly so) is scaling into that sort of event, and these issues are something that I know a lot about from my time working with Ratty. Over the years with his involvement, successfully or not, the issues of venue change, cost modelling and such like, Gen Con UK did these issues to death, and still got it wrong.

It feels, to me, that the venue change announcement may be a bit premature, in that it was probably made to generate buzz, but all it will do is generate questions that there are yet to be answers to, especially definitive ones.

On another Project I'm working on I've got a conference venue provider down to £45 BnB, I do know they go as low as £29 PPPN BNB so I'm working on that. However there are sticking points around syndicate rooms to be provided and some hard negotiations going on to see about getting it lower, as the current rate ate the current venue is significantly lower than what the potential new venues are offering.

However this project faces similar issues that in order to grow long term, they need to move to a bigger venue and convince their market the value proposition is better inspite of the likely cost increases, or they need to accept that their current venue is all their attendees will pay for, thereby limiting the scope, and scale of the event.

Tough choices all round.

Kind Regards,

Stu