Concise, Practical Advice:- Building Immersion

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Concise, Practical Advice:- Building Immersion

Postby Omnifray » 4:27pm on 27 Sep 12

This is a short, practical summary of some tips which, evidence suggests, work by and large for probably the majority of immersive gamers. (Not for all gamers who game immersively. There is an element of YMMV here. But as I say, evidence suggests that the following probably works for the majority. NB there are flaws in my evidence. I'm not going to discuss those flaws here or debate the merits of the evidential basis for what I say. These are just meant to be practical tips which you ought to try out at least once if you haven't tried and rejected them already.)

By "immersion" I mean immersion in character. Call it simply "getting into character" if you will. It's when you're not just pretending to be an elf, but feel a bit like an elf in some way too. Or a vampire. Or a mage. Or a mouse on guard-duty. Or a smartly-dressed man with rubber shoes, a lack of hair and a penchant for hippy games. Whatever floats your boat.

* DON'T RAILROAD THE PLAYERS - people need a sense of ownership of their characters, man

* use 1st person direct speech in-character dialogue --- avoid social conflict mechanics, at any rate ones which interrupt the free flow of natural dialogue excessively

* avoid personality mechanics, especially mechanics which dictate your character's natural, rational response in a given situation

* for players, avoid "out-of-character" thinking - let your character do what feels natural to you, based on in-character reasoning
[don't try to make decisions about your character's actions based on what will make a good "story"; act as and through your character; avoid "author stance", "director stance" and "pawn stance"]

* avoid "dissociated" mechanics where you the player have to know stuff which has no fictional parallel
[for instance, a rule that you can perform some purely mundane and physical feat 1/day]

* keep things believable - retain suspension of disbelief

* as a player, make sure you start the game with a solid basic character concept with easy roleplay fodder
[this is not to say you can't flesh it out later, but have some kind of a basic idea there to start with, something you can "plug into"]

* cut out background distractions - make sure you turn up to the game smelling fresh, and leave your phone alone

and finally the one which I personally find most subjective:-
* avoid intrusive mechanics, including any mechanics which are "clunkier" than your group is comfortable with



Please note this is specifically not intended to be advice for making an all-round "better" game or a "more fun" game, and whilst some of it would chime well with a "hippy indie" storygamer, other aspects of it are antithetical to "hippy indie" storygaming as I understand it. And obviously, in compiling the list, there is a risk that my own bias has crept in, as it nearly exactly reflects my own preferences (though I might "bend" elements of it to accommodate other goals). The only major difference I have to the majority is that my tolerance for "clunkiness" is far higher than most people's.
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Re: Concise, Practical Advice:- Building Immersion

Postby Omnifray » 11:13pm on 27 Sep 12

Ah - Pete has forum-thanked me for the above post... maybe he recognised himself in the description? ;-)

BTW, the above post (the OP of this thread) is in the public domain. Anyone can copy/adapt it if they find it useful, including for commercial purposes, without acknowlegement of authorship. Though, it would be kind if they did acknowledge me if they use it verbatim [or making clear that they've adapted it if they do] :-)
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Re: Concise, Practical Advice:- Building Immersion

Postby Neil Gow » 7:04am on 28 Sep 12

I like these Matt - they actually articulate your gaming style infinitely better than some of the other ways that you have tried. I found myself nodding along with many of them. Nice.
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Re: Concise, Practical Advice:- Building Immersion

Postby oreso » 8:21am on 28 Sep 12

Yeah, this is really great stuff. And short enough post for me to read in one sitting! :P

I'd maybe ask about...
  • I get that prescriptive personality or social mechanics would be bad for this. But maybe descriptive ones would be okey? They don't tell you what to do or think or who wins the argument, but they give mechanical consequences when those things happen. Eg: You mad, bro? Then take a 'you mad' chip you can spend if you have a fight this scene, or some XP, or whatever. You just won an argument? Take +1 political power.
  • How about social mechanics which are all about reputation and popular support, not changing beliefs? Eg: the stakes are never "I convince the dude to gimme all his moneyz" (this would be intrusive and immersion breaking); but "I convince the crowd that the dude should gimme all his moneyz".

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Re: Concise, Practical Advice:- Building Immersion

Postby Omnifray » 10:29am on 28 Sep 12

oreso wrote:
  • I get that prescriptive personality or social mechanics would be bad for this. But maybe descriptive ones would be okey? They don't tell you what to do or think or who wins the argument, but they give mechanical consequences when those things happen. Eg: You mad, bro? Then take a 'you mad' chip you can spend if you have a fight this scene, or some XP, or whatever. You just won an argument? Take +1 political power.
  • How about social mechanics which are all about reputation and popular support, not changing beliefs? Eg: the stakes are never "I convince the dude to gimme all his moneyz" (this would be intrusive and immersion breaking); but "I convince the crowd that the dude should gimme all his moneyz".


The list is based on what immersive gamers report about what works for them... not exactly on my "ideal" [caveat, my methodology has not been perfect]. Although the only significant area where I diverge from the majority is in the level of "clunk" I can tolerate without being distracted by it [and I can tolerate quite a bit, don'tcha know], there are minor areas where I would refine what the majority say to align more neatly with what works for me.

One particular feature of the Soul's Calling RPG I'm working on, which is intended to be primarily an immersive game, is that there ARE social mechanics but they work by a dice-roll BEFORE the interaction which INFLUENCES (does not DICTATE) how the GM roleplays the NPCs and feeds info to the players.

I suspect most gamers whose self-reported experiences I've relied on have no experience of using that sort of Third Way social mechanic which doesn't interrupt dialogue, doesn't dictate roleplay or outcomes, doesn't dictate reasoning processes to the player but DOES allow you to play someone whose social effectiveness is, potentially [depending on who you are I guess], remarkably better than your own.

Now, consequences-based mechanics, e.g. "you've won the debate, take +1 Political Power" [which I assume correlates to greater political connections and alliances in the game-fiction] or "you played your personality trait to the full, gain +1 Fate" - what about those... They might distract some gamers from immersion in character, but probably not the majority. The key thing is (A) not to dictate (1) how players model in their heads their characters' natural and rational decision-processes or how their characters, acting rationally and naturally, must behave or (2) how players speak as and for their characters in dialogue, and (B) not to interrupt that free flow of dialogue excessively.

But for some players, even having the wrong mechanic in the background may distract them from immersion. Say, some arguably dissociated mechanic (play your character's traits to the full and gain +1 Fate) or even an associated personality mechanic (like winning the debate and getting +1 Political Power which represents something tangible in the game-world). It's a bit subjective in that respect. As for me, in Soul's Calling I'm including rules on Tendencies - you can gain Fate by playing your Tendencies, which are basically personality traits. BUT a player can and possibly should abdicate responsibility for their Fate points etc. to the ref. I've tried to make it as associated as possible by my use of terminology and by twists in the game-fiction BUT fundamentally for some players Fate will always be something they don't really believe in, and they'll think it's just a byword for "dirty hippy" drama mechanics. [Pardon the expression :p]

Speeches to a crowd are an interesting fringe case but I think the same basic reasoning applies as for other interactions.
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Re: Concise, Practical Advice:- Building Immersion

Postby Baz King » 2:31pm on 28 Sep 12

Hit points. Count as dissociated?
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Re: Concise, Practical Advice:- Building Immersion

Postby Omnifray » 7:43pm on 28 Sep 12

Baz King wrote:Hit points. Count as dissociated?


I'm in danger of contradicting what I've written elsewhere on the Internet quite recently but here goes...

The test for a dissociated mechanic is:- is there an absence of sufficient nexus/analogy/parallel/connection between the thought processes that the character would sufficiently believably engage in and the thought processes that the mechanics lead you to engage in as that character's player? The threshold for what is "sufficient" or "sufficiently believable" is subjective and only you can judge that for you.

If you read the stuff in some of the D&D books about hit points being more than just physical skill and toughness and including also an element of luck, then, for me personally (subjectively), they're probably dissociated. Luck/fate I can rationalise as part of the game-world, but I see no basis in the text for inferring that a D&D character is supposed to know (in the fiction) how lucky they are and to what degree fate is on their side. As a player you're aware of the character's hit points, but hit points include an element of Luck/fate of which the character presumably [though not necessarily] has no concept. So when you the player have to make a tactical assessment based on your character's hit points, it's probably dissociated for that reason.

In practice nearly everyone imagines hit points as physical toughness alone IME, notwithstanding what it says in the books.

Beyond that, even if you reduce hit points to physical toughness alone, I guess they're probably still a bit dissociated for me. Why? Because so often you will simply KNOW that an attack can't kill your character because it can't do enough damage regardless of what's rolled. E.g. you have 50 hit points and a goblin attacks you doing d6+1 hit points damage per blow. You've seen the DM roll for damage against you or another player. This is totally unsatisfactory from an association/dissociation point of view. In any believable fantasy scenario a hero would do his utmost NOT to get stabbed, because a stab could kill him in one blow if the goblin got lucky and stabbed the hero in the throat or eyeball or whatever. So, in circumstances where I can figure out how the enemy's damage dice compare with my hit points, my reasoning process becomes very different to my character's [I'll step in the way of that blow, it'll only do me d6+1 damage, I can take it...] the mechanic is dissociated (for me). By the way, the mechanics of full-fat Omnifray fail this test - the damage mechanics in that game are capable of being dissociated in the same way depending on the circumstances. Soul's Calling's combat system however is not dissociated in this way.

If you can't figure out how the potential damage compares with your hit points, and if you consider hit points to be just an expression of physical toughness, then I guess the mechanic is associated (for me).

NB the mere fact that I have to engage with a dissociated mechanic won't necessarily break my immersion. Speaking for myself personally. It's just that dissociated mechancis tend to be not great for immersion, for most players.

All in all though, I've said elsewhere that the list of various borderline-dissociated D&D mechancis e.g. classes, levels etc., is "just about OK". Which it probably is. They're by no means great, but they're not the worst going. Judging them strictly on the criterion of dissociation/association only, and not judging whether they are good/bad mechanics in an overall sense, which is far more complex and subjective.

Lesson for Baz:- never expect a simple answer to a simple question ;-)

At any rate not from Omnifray...
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Re: Concise, Practical Advice:- Building Immersion

Postby Baz King » 8:42pm on 28 Sep 12

Armour Class. Dissociated or not?

Fate points?

Encumbrance rules?

Spells?

Magic items?

You see, I've had totally immersive experiences in games that have used all of the above, sometimes at the same time. It may be that we have different definitions of immersion (and let's not go there, please) or different definitions of dissociated (and given that I see hit points as largely representing morale, that could be the case) but I really don't see the latter as any kind of block to the former.

Personally, of course.
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Re: Concise, Practical Advice:- Building Immersion

Postby oreso » 8:42am on 29 Sep 12

Omnifray wrote:Beyond that, even if you reduce hit points to physical toughness alone, I guess they're probably still a bit dissociated for me. Why? Because so often you will simply KNOW that an attack can't kill your character because it can't do enough damage regardless of what's rolled. E.g. you have 50 hit points and a goblin attacks you doing d6+1 hit points damage per blow. You've seen the DM roll for damage against you or another player. This is totally unsatisfactory from an association/dissociation point of view. In any believable fantasy scenario a hero would do his utmost NOT to get stabbed, because a stab could kill him in one blow if the goblin got lucky and stabbed the hero in the throat or eyeball or whatever. So, in circumstances where I can figure out how the enemy's damage dice compare with my hit points, my reasoning process becomes very different to my character's [I'll step in the way of that blow, it'll only do me d6+1 damage, I can take it...] the mechanic is dissociated (for me).
Sounds like a genre thing to me.

In Real Life Land, sure, the goblin could get lucky. But in heroic fantasy fiction? No way. There would have to be a gazillion goblins or like, some sort of liche lord casting the Hex of Terribadness on our otherwise stalwart and all-but invincible champion. Is there a distinction you wanna draw there? Can we only be immersed in something close to real life?

(Tangentally: Maybe Baz is talking about being immersed in the genre here? Actually feeling a bit like a bad-ass hero, carrying a bunch of cool stuff and wading through inconsequential goblins on his way to the fearsome demon Bagofexpee in the Tomb of Phatlewts. Not to say that those particular mechanics mentioned will elicit the kind of immersion you're after still.)

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Re: Concise, Practical Advice:- Building Immersion

Postby Omnifray » 4:23pm on 29 Sep 12

Baz King wrote:Dissociated or not?


As I think I've already made clear upthread, mechanics which are dissociated for one player may be associated for another player. The question of whether a mechanic is associated or dissociated has no single answer, but rather different answers for different players, depending on their personal standards of believability and analogy. What is, for you, a sufficiently close way of modelling in your mind a reasoning process that your character sufficiently believably could have?

I will not give my reasons but only my personal subjective answers to the various mechanics you have listed. My answers, save in respect of Fate points, assume that we are playing a game in the classic D&D style.

Baz King wrote:Armour Class.


Sufficiently associated.

Baz King wrote:Fate points?


Depends on the genre and on how they are implemented. In WHFRP 2e, dissociated. In full-fat Omnifray, associated, but only just. I can easily see how full-fat Omnifray's system of feats of destiny may seem dissociated to some.

Baz King wrote:Encumbrance rules?


Associated.

Baz King wrote:Spells?


Associated.

Baz King wrote:Magic items?


Associated.

Baz King wrote:You see, I've had totally immersive experiences in games that have used all of the above, sometimes at the same time. It may be that we have different definitions of immersion (and let's not go there, please) or different definitions of dissociated (and given that I see hit points as largely representing morale, that could be the case) but I really don't see the latter as any kind of block to the former.

Personally, of course.


As I've said upthread and elsewhere, dissociated mechanics don't necessarily break my immersion. Maybe they cause a minor but insignificant drift from it. I'm thinking of a LARP where I can have the ability "Jump 2/day" as a purely mundane physical ability. Is it dissociated? It's pretty borderline. Does it interfere with my immersion? Not really.

The thing is, dissociated mechanics aren't a huge issue for me personally. I'm not a great fan of them in the extreme case, but most kinds of dissociated mechanics I don't find too problematic. I might think the game is better without some of them, but it's not a huge thing for me. HOWEVER the above list is not a list of things which always make/break immersion for me. It is just a list of advice based on what tends to work for the majority of immersive gamers. NOT for everyone. And whilst my general preferences chime broadly with the majority preferences I've identified - with the major exception of the degree of clunk - you can't just read that list and assume that everything on it reflects exactly how immersion works for me personally. It's more a majority common ground thing.
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Re: Concise, Practical Advice:- Building Immersion

Postby Omnifray » 4:46pm on 29 Sep 12

oreso wrote:Sounds like a genre thing to me.


Some people can accept things as believable because they are consistent with genre. Other people can't.

Thus, apparently [I personally know nothing really about comics but read this somewhere], some Supers games are notoriously problematic for some players because the genre conventions [depending on the era of comics you're talking about] frankly don't reflect how real people act.

Me personally, I can't accept things as believable just because they're consistent with someone else's notion of the genre which I probably don't agree with anyway. I can accept the existence of magic, futuristic technology etc., and even absolute evil on the part of supernatural beings. [Indeed, humans can be psychopathic, which I think can result in them more or less consistently acting in the same way as absolutely evil beings if their psychopathy is twinned with antisocial preferences.] But I can't accept things with no supernatural explanation which just don't chime with real life at all. I can accept fate and destiny as an influence on how things turn out. But the idea that a goblin has a NIL chance of killing the hero in one blow - unless the hero is like a golem or something, I just find that unbelievable. Regardless of genre. And more to the point, I just don't see that as a "genre convention". I see it as a story convention. And story conventions don't apply to "my" RPGs, by which I mean RPGs that I run or particularly enjoy [which is not to say that NO conventions are common between story conventions and "my" RPGs].

oreso wrote:Is there a distinction you wanna draw there? Can we only be immersed in something close to real life?


The trouble with your second question is the "we" bit. YOU can be immersed in character, in the sense of immersion I mean, in a game of heroic fantasy with what you think of as genre conventions. In fact, so can I, BUT I would say that the existence of those genre conventions is clearly more problematic for me than it is for you. This is a subjective thing.

You could speculate that the closer it gets to real life, the less problematic it's going to be for immersion. But there are two problems, at least, with that hypothesis. The first is that if it's too much like real life, it'll be boring, and boredom is an instakill for immersion. No fun means no immersion [the converse however is not true]. The second is that there comes a point where a game is sufficiently believable for your immersion, i.e. sufficiently "close" to "real life" in whatever aspects are material to your thought-processes and imagination. Beyond that point, making the game more believable or "closer" to "real life" doesn't necessarily help your immersion at all. What you need is to cross a certain threshold of believability. Beyond that, "extra" believability is, from an immersion point of view, superfluous. This is one of the reasons why the idea of "simulation" is such a poor basis for understanding immersion. Sure, you need a degree of believability. But you don't necessarily need a metric tonne of it. You might only need a smidgen. How much you need is a subjective question and the answer is personal to you.

Just to emphasise the point, there is a lot more to immersion in character than the avoidance of dissociated mechanics, and having to use dissociated mechanics isn't an absolute barrier to immersion for everyone, and is no problem at all for some players. It varies hugely from player to player. I am by no means in the "most sensitive" camp when it comes to sensitivity to dissociated mechanics.

oreso wrote:(Tangentally: Maybe Baz is talking about being immersed in the genre here? Actually feeling a bit like a bad-ass hero, carrying a bunch of cool stuff and wading through inconsequential goblins on his way to the fearsome demon Bagofexpee in the Tomb of Phatlewts. Not to say that those particular mechanics mentioned will elicit the kind of immersion you're after still.)


I'm pretty sure we're all talking about immersion in character, and that's the only topic for discussion really.

The thing is, just as boredom can be an instakill for immersion, likewise, being excited by and interested in your character concept can be a leg-up to help your immersion along. If you get that excitement and interest from being a genre-appropriate bad-ass hero, more power to you. You can really feel like you ARE, say, Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Xena the Warrior Princess. And why not?

The minor difference between me and you might be that for example if we're both roleplaying vampire slayers in the Buffy tradition I might find it less believable if the goons have NIL chance of killing me in one blow, and you might find it less believable if they have greater than nil chance of killing you in one blow, because your concept of a vampire slayer might be someone who is in practice invulnerable to that kind of ignominious death. Alternatively, you might also find it less believable that you're invulnerable in that way, but you might still find it sufficiently believable for you, because you're prepared to stretch the bounds of believability for the sake of genre-consistency. Yet again, you might not find it sufficiently believable so you might think of it as dissociated, but you might just put that to the back of your mind because the genre conventions make some kind of a sense to you even though they're not really believable, so you might attain/maintain immersion with no problems at all despite having mechanics which in the cold light of day you would consider to be dissociated.

So really, it all comes down to something very individual and in some respects subjective. That doesn't rob the concept of dissociated mechanics of meaning, but it does mean that we have to understand that concept in a broader context, as not being by any means the be all and end all of immersion, let alone of roleplaying enjoyment, which is a far broader topic still.

I mean, you might hypothetically find a mechanic SO dissociated that you find it starkly counter-immersive, but you might still love the game and even that very same mechanic for other reasons which outweigh its counter-immersive drawbacks for you.
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Re: Concise, Practical Advice:- Building Immersion

Postby oreso » 8:51pm on 29 Sep 12

Omnifray wrote:snip the massive post about Buffy and stuff
Yeah, about right.

I've had more than a couple of games ruined (and my immersion broken) by people acting in a 'realistic' fashion in a genre game, the GM included.

People running around tooled up with guns in Buffy. A silver-age supers game where someone teleported inside a human villain to explode him. Or a DnD game where a guy died from dunking his head into a barrel of water that the GM decided was actually scalding hot. :D

I'd argue we even have this problem in 'realistic' settings too. I mean, if we're being honest, the realistic thing in a Buffy or Cthulhu game would be to crap yourself a lot and maybe call the cops and then get sectioned, if you even survive. Getting tooled up isn't realistic; it's just a gamer-y attitude where a player wants to run in and have some fun, with genre conventions -and- realism be damned.




So yeah, personally, I like to use genre/story/whatever rules to explore stuff. To me, I don't think there's a disconnect there. I'm not holding "This is what my character would really do" and "This is best for the story" as two separate threads; because if the game is well-designed, it should be natural that they're together. And I think mechanics (like DnD's HP) can help here (the hero knows he's destined for greater things, and slays goblins without undue fuss).

But I'll think some more on the mechanics thing.

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